Propagate untruths?
Let me ask you a few other questions.
Why are you so concerned that U of H could have been in negotiations to be part of the sec?
Are you in the private sector moncoog? Have you negotiated contract with potential clients? Are these negotiations usually made public?
Still waiting on should U of H get a share of the PUF.
No one is “concerned” about it.
We are simply dispelling the idea that UH was EVER “invited” to join the SEC.
It never happened.
So people shouldn’t act as if it ever did. Wanting it to happen isn’t the same as actually having it happen, as the retired consultant pointed out.
Dispelling the idea…Is this a taboo subject?
You are still not getting it.
Negotiations, what does it mean?
As I said, negotiations to change conference cannot take place without a formal public vote by the Board, giving the prez authorization to do exactly that.
That’s what happened with the Big 12, in case you doubt me.
Anything else is a mere “discussion” at best, not a true negotiation.
Real talk: Emergency Board meeting notes on the subject would count, as long as the secretary wrote “discuss potential invite to SEC”. Right?
Hypothetically, One could FOIA the notes (not online) from 1990-1994 to find if there’s evidence, but this is still thin, to me, without the SEC side’s board notes.
It clearly fell apart because of reasons that never went to a public forum.
Who told you it went to a public vote?
Furthermore and this is a fact. madcowsu highjacked the SWC and the BIG8 to force the BIG12 to take certain schools while excluding others. Do you think a VOTE TOOK PLACE?
Coog51 post is crystal clear how it happened.
Stop pretending you know how negotiations work law. Enough already.
It did.
I even listened to the recorded footage of the meeting.
Here, I’ll help you out.
Board notes can be made public. Private discussions regarding public institutions at the detriment of others is kept silent.
And as I said, those are mere “discussions” which don’t mean much, NOT “negotiations.”
Right and agreed.
Exactly, my point is that if it’s not online, a person could file a request to see all the board notes from that paperwork for some relic.
What is it that you do not understand?
Basics negotiations 101.
How long do you think before it reached this point?
You want to learn about negotiations? Do an intnership at a private company. This will make sense to you.
…yes and the request can be turned down. You are also talking about the 60’s, 70’s, 80’s and 90’s. I can tell you first hand that “public records” are often lost/displaced/never to be found again after just about a few years. It is unbelievable sometimes.
Right - Understood, I’ve been in that position (receiving and rejecting FOIA requests) before.
I will add that Coog51 post revealing how madcowsu highjacked the SWC and the BIG8 was the most revealing insight I had ever read on the SWC imploding, the BIG8 imploding and the creation of the madcowsu driven BIG12.
All Texas state universities should get a share of PUF.
As far as collapse of SWC and Big 12 defections is concerned, I go with Ive read on reasonably reliable sources.
I did read the KSU AD statement that Big 8 wanted a full merger, but then another source said ESPN only supported 4.
Re Arkansas, again I go with published words from Frank Broyles.
Re Nebraska, what I’ve read is that when the Big 12 was formed, NU was the biggest opined or equal revenue sharing, which is why their Big 8 partners refused to vote to keep PQ. NU was also the biggest opponent of a Big 12 network. If that gone thru it would have been the 1st conference network. Kevin Weiberg the Big 12 commissioner at the time was disgusted he quit and became CEO of Big 10 TV and led its launching.
I don’t blame UT for wanting to “blow up the SWC” if that is indeed the case. The SWC was unsustainable! It had too many small private schools, small geographic foot print. It was a case either blow it up or sink with it! And no, there was no viable way for SWC to expand its footprint.
UT may have broken SWC bylaws by passing the SWC commissioner, and if so why didn’t the 4 left behind sue UT for breach of contract? No rule was broken if UT did indeed bypass the Big 8 commissioner.
Re UH and your point about SEC wanting UH is weak. They didn’t want UH, any more than PAC wanted UH a few years ago when the AD leaked he’d met PAC officials as an obvious stunt to bluff the Big 12 into giving UH an invite.
Conversations and expressions of interest don’t mean anything in the business world. It’s the signed contract that counts.
The fact that SEC “wanted” UH as a package deal
with A&M in 1991, means they didn’t want UH. It was A&M they wanted and UH was a nice add on. And no I don’t think UT had the power to bully A&M into remaining in the SWC. A&M is the one university in the state that can match UT political and big money donor.ls.
I second that.
They don’t mean much in a court of law either.
That’s why I told him what I did. Show me a written invitation from the SEC, and then I’ll concede that the SEC truly wanted us, and that we were genuinely invited.
Otherwise…sorry.
Good for you to support U of H getting a share of the PUF. Some do not share our points of view on this. moncoog is one of them. By refusing to answer the question we can only conclude he is against it.
Regarding the SWC you can agree with madcowsu to do this. It still does not give them ANY rights to have done so. None what so ever gave them that right. What are they? The mafia maybe?
Who is the source saying what you alleged with espn? A BIG8 A.D. speaking like he did had never been done before. This was indeed BREAKING NEWS for anyone that is curious of that time period.
U of H to the sec? Again the nature, basic nature of negotiation is done so it does not become public until an agreement or non agreement has been made.
Prior to the 76 season U of H was a highly Nationally ranked program. Discussions took place then all of a sudden we got an invite to the SWC after we had been turned down for years? Coincidence it was not. The early 90’s and as you put it a “package deal” with atm was about media markets. At the same time we now know that madcowsu was trying to join the PAC12. For law, did madcowsu and madcows negotiated an invite? By all accounts they/madcowsu turned it down. Was that all made public and made crystal clear?
This write-up from the SA Express articles related to UH, is the only one I could find on the invitations to the SEC that aren’t anecdotes of UH board members.
The group convened in Bullock’s office in a state building next to the Capitol. On hand were Bullock, Cunningham, Sibley, Montford, Mobley, Gage and Bill Clayton, a former house speaker who now sat on A&M’s board of regents.
Cunningham told Bullock that, indeed, UT was on the verge of joining the Big Eight. By then, Bullock and the others were prepared to act — prepared to wield the monolithic clout that stems from rural politics and lengthy tenure — to buy Baylor and Tech passage out of the doomed SWC.
The four other SWC schools — SMU, TCU, Rice and Houston, all based in metropolitan communities — found few advocates for their interests.
…
The Longhorns next turned to the Big Ten.
Having added Penn State in 1990, the Big Ten was now made of universities that, in the view of UT officials, matched UT’s profile — large state schools with strong academic reputations. Berdahl liked the fact that 10 conference members belonged to the American Association of Universities.
Yet, distance remained a disadvantage. Iowa, the closest Big Ten school to Austin, was 856 miles away — but the appeal of having 10 of 12 schools in the same time zone was seen as a plus.
But after adding Penn State in 1990, Big Ten officials had put a four-year moratorium on expansion. Although admitting interest, Big Ten bosses ultimately rejected UT’s overtures.
That left the SEC as a possible relocation target for the Longhorns — until Berdahl let it be known that UT wasn’t interested because of the league’s undistinguished academic profile. Only two of 12 schools in the SEC were American Association of Universities members and UT officials saw admissions standards to SEC schools as too lenient.
“We were quite interested in raising academic standards,” Berdahl says. “And the Southeastern Conference had absolutely no interest in that.”
A&M, meanwhile, had no qualms about flirting with the SEC. From the late 1980s on, administrators from A&M and LSU had several informal conversations about the Aggies joining the SEC. After talks with Miami broke down in 1990, the SEC’s courtship with A&M grew more serious.
LSU athletic director Joe Dean telephoned his A&M counterpart John David Crow to discuss A&M’s candidacy.
“Joe was going to sponsor us, do what was needed to be done,” Crow said. “They would have liked to have had us.”
At the NCAA Convention in Dallas in January 1993, Dean reportedly met with Dodds and Crow to discuss a possible two-school move. Dean later told reporters that he believed UT was “headed north” — to the Big Eight or Big Ten — while A&M was the “most logical addition to the SEC.”
In response to reports of the meeting, a representative of A&M president William Mobley told reporters there had been no offer and “Dr. Mobley is firmly committed to the Southwest Conference.”
But in August 1993, A&M regents chairman Margraves flew to LSU for his son’s graduation, taking time to meet with LSU chancellor William Davis to discuss the possible migration of A&M — and Houston — into the SEC. Margraves later said he came away from the trip favoring a move.
…
SMU, TCU and Rice headed to the Western Athletic Conference, a geographically widespread league that boasted one football national champion (BYU, in 1984) but modest accomplishments elsewhere.
Houston, believing its future was to the east — the school had once coveted an invitation to the SEC — cast its lot with a new league formed from the nucleus of the old Metro Conference, called Conference USA.
Not that the Owls don’t own a life vest, in this case, a $3 billion general endowment that keeps the school’s athletic dreams afloat. And Rice’s academic reputation remains an attention-grabber for degree-minded recruits.
Three miles away, in a very different situation, sits the University of Houston, also left behind when the SWC broke apart, despite its status as a state university. The other three state schools in the old SWC fraternity — Texas, Texas A&M and Texas Tech — all jumped to the Big 12.
The last school to enter the SWC — the Cougars joined in 1972 — UH has struggled to sustain respect, even from its fan base.
Bill Carr, the Cougars’ AD a decade ago, contends that the only reason the SWC invited UH into the fold in the first place was to put limitations on them, to prevent the school’s success as an independent in football and basketball from overshadowing theirs.
That attitude prevailed in the formation of the Big 12, Carr said.
“It’s an extraordinary move, when three state universities take that action and leave behind a fourth,” Carr said. “That did irreparable damage to the University of Houston.”
Much of the damage UH did to itself.
While Rice, with its small enrollment and micro-alumni base, was never a viable option to head to the Big 12, UH had been a candidate to go to the Southeastern Conference only five years before the SWC breakup.
The Cougars wasted the chance through their own NCAA probation woes and competitive failings.
Carr said the school’s football probation problems — four probations since the 1970s — wasn’t the biggest drawback.
“More damaging,” he said, “was the lack of market penetration by the University of Houston in that big city of four million.”
In 1993, just five months before the breakup, the Cougars hosted Tulsa at the Astrodome and drew only 9,000. Carr said Houston audiences are more social in nature and simply aren’t driven to support college teams.
“The Houston Livestock Show and Rodeo takes the place of college football,” Carr said. “The rodeo is to Houston as University of Florida football is to Gainesville.”
Dave Maggard, the school’s AD, said UH has taken positive steps to recapture its former glories in football and basketball. He points to smart coaching hires, including Tom Penders, the former UT basketball coach who now runs the Cougars’ tradition-rich program.
The school has started a new fund-raising program that raised $700,000 in 2003 and $2 million last year. UH’s athletic department budget of $25million still requires a $9 million subsidy from the university.
“We feel the SEC is the kind of conference we’d like to be associated with. We feel we would fit in well with the SEC schools in a number of ways. Of course, we’d like to stay in the Southwest Conference, but we have to be realistic about our future.”
Rudy Davalos, Houston AD, 1990
“It’s like the Soviet Union. The ultimate reason for change was not simply ideology. It was economics. When the numbers don’t work, things change.”
Bill Carr, Houston AD, September 1994
“I served on the Athletics Advisory Board from 87-94. Stan Binion and I were the two Board of Regent Nominees representing the BOR. We had an overview function of approving budgets, scholastics, hiring and firing coaches, and a macro guidance of the Athletic Department.
Rudy Davalos (AD and head of the Advisory Board) called me on a Wednesday Night (in 91 I think), calling an Emergency Meeting on Friday. We all showed up, and Rudy informed us that UH had been extended an offer to join the SEC along with A&M. We voted “Yes” 12-0. A&M and UH were to hold a joint news conference at 10am Monday to announce the move.
Well…A&M fish tailed. IMO, this weekend the Big 12 was formed in a smoke filled back room. No question. A&M cut the deal with Texas, preventing us from going to the SEC. IMO, we were probably on the inside track to join the Big12, but Governor Richards and Lt. Governor Bullock (Baylor/TT), exercised enough power to screw us out of the deal. We limped along in the SWC for the next year, while they “officially” formed the Big 12, but the die had been cast.
I was there. This happened. “
They had the right to do what was in their best interest. Any school has that right. They looked at the changing landscape of college athletics, particularly football and saw the writing on the wall.
SWC could not be saved. It was a sinking ship. The choice was either to sink with it or jump ship.
I know you would probably have preferred they go down with the conference. But I can’t blame anyone for looking out for themself.
Also the fact that UH admins chose to join the SWC over the SEC can’t be blamed on anyone but the UH brass. Blaming Texas for that is really reaching for it.
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